WAR OF THE ROSEBUDS
Vivifien @vivifien in conversation with Wesley Manners @wesleycmanners, photography by Ty Chapman @ty_chapman
WESLEY MANNERS [WM]
So let's get into girl. [laughing] How was growing up in the North for you?
[both laughing]
VIVIFIEN [VF]
Oh my God. Well, as you will also know, growing up in the North, it was very rough at times, but it was also very lovely in parts as well. I think living in London, I feel very grateful in many ways, to have grown up where I did, and how that's informed the person I am now in relation to the people around me.
WM
It's such a grounding experience I think
VF
Growing up in the north?
WM
Yeah [both laughing] real, real humbling.
VF
Real talk
But I do miss it it's been a while since I went back to Leeds, but every time I go back, I just feel so surprised when I'm at the station and everyone's so polite and nice. I'm so used to this kind of London feeling now.
WM
The extremes are more apparent up there. The people that are horrible that you meet are even worse than the lovely people you meet.
VF
Like, I know this is a tale for all time, but Northern community is something that you only really notice when you step away from it, only then do you realise how much of a thing it actually is.
I wouldn't want to be in that space all the time but I feel lucky that I do have that space to go to and recharge. And I know you feel the same...
WM
A little bit.
I moved back for a month a few years ago. I really wanted that train ticket booked immediately
VF
Once you do a week, the countryside stops looking so lovely - and London starts to look more beautiful
WM
Were you partying as a teenager?
VF
So you and I both grew up in the days of the Lambrini, the three liters of Strongbow...
WM
Frosty Jacks!
VF
With all your mates, on your Walkman, listening to From Paris to Berlin, that was very much the era. I was just like any other 13 year old Emo, probably had a drinking problem and didn't even realise
WM
I'm thinking back now, and the amount of times I would get taken home by people, carried home by the rugby boys, — there was one time my friend's parents said
"OH, HERE'S SOME WINE YOU CAN HAVE".
I blacked out and, locked myself in their bathroom whilst they were trying to take me home.
VF
I remember one time in my era of wearing non prescription glasses all the time - I'd passed out in this field drinking with my friend and when I woke up, I was in the back of a transit van, and I just heard this guy go
"AYE, GOK WAN'S WOKEN UP!"
I was like where am I going? What is going on?
WM
Oh, god, the things we did... scary.
So how old were you when you moved to London?
VF
When I moved to London and stayed I was, what, 21?
WM
You moved earlier?
VF
I moved earlier. When I was 19 and then had lots of bereavements and took a lot of drugs. I just had to go back and regroup before I could come back. I think being queer in a small town and having such little access to all of these things that when you come into a space where it's everywhere, it's just so overwhelming.
Even in the you're in the best state. So I think having all of these things going on, it was just too much. But yeah, I moved back when I was 21 have lived here for nine years now.
WM
Ok, so you’re a Londoner at this point.
VF
I know!
WM
I feel you. I remember being 15/16 back in Leeds, everyone would just be sat smoking weed. I'd be like, YEAH! bouncing, raring to do something. like "What are we doing next???" and they’re like "we're just chilling"
VF
But as neurodivergent people, we're gonna chase the dopamine.
But I was struggling because I was too fucking poor, I didn't have a passport or anything. I just had one of those Citizen cards and nowhere would let me in anyway, I would have to sneak in when the bouncers weren't looking or like blag my way in, there was maybe, like, two shitty bars in Shoreditch that would let me in! so I was chasing it, but whether I wanted to be caught, that's a completely different story.
WM
When I think about those times of being young in the club, and now, after a few years of working at the club, I really I regret a lot of things, I really put those people through something.
VF
Like that fucking girl last week when I was working and she'd lost her ticket for a fucking coat, and so I let her in, she was like "it's a black jacket". I was like, Bitch, it's Playbody, everyone has a black jacket, like you are not helping me at all. She's like, "I'll never slag off the cloakroom person again". I was like, why are you slagging us off to begin with? Like, what the fuck. But yeah, I think you get a new appreciation of that side of things.
WM
You realise how they're entitled. It's just drugs and alcohol, just pushing that instant emotion.
VF
Yep. Put the vodka cranberry down.
WM
[laughs]
How long have you been working in clubs?
VF
I think, on and off, since 2019. I've worked at The Glory in Dalston.
I got fired. I think it was Just May the drag queen. She's like "How come I don't see you at The Glory anymore?" And I was like, oh, I got fired. She's like, "You got fired from The Glory?!" I was like yeah, just for being an absolute fucking mess. I think I was always drunk. I was always late. I was the entitled little shit on the wrong side of the bar. Offering people free drinks in exchange for drugs, you know, like all of that, cashing in all my like East London doll tokens.
WM
Taxes exactly.
VF
Yes! Its the East London doll tax, you have to be a horrible employee everywhere you go.
WM
Obviously, working in clubs isn't all It is. What's driving you?
VF
the need for money, The need for my estrogen. [screaming, laughing]
WM
How can I rephrase that better? It was a bit of a pointed question.
VF
No, I don't think it's a pointed question. I think it's a fair question. I think a lot of the question the creative industries are still experiencing the fallout. You know, our industry is like kind of collapsed in on itself these past few years. We're still definitely feeling the effects of covid and all of those things. So I think what's driving me now is just and I think this is something I've only recently started really wanting for myself is genuinely a healthier and a happier existence. And I don't think I had that drive before, because I was too busy running away from the real things, of running away from how scary it feels to think about your future and think about where you want to go. So I think, yeah, it's like just sticking my head in the sand, whereas now I think I'm facing things that head on a little bit more.
WM
Yeah I think we're both in the same boat I think the past two years, it's been quite crazy. I think there's been a big shift recently. There's a lot of people really reflecting on what we've been up to and the impact that's had on us.
VF
Peel the curtain back and look at your fucking shit honestly, and it's hard to do. And I think you know, and I think you probably feel the same. You see a lot of people, people that you care about and love as well, that you worry it's like, are you ever gonna do that? It's hard, it's scary, but I think it needs be done
WM
there's so many times like me and my friend would both be mutually worried about each other. Going to talk to our other friend like, God, I'm so worried about them. I hope they're okay, and we're both doing the same. It is like holding up a mirror.
VF
I've never had that conversation about you. I'm having it right now. [laughter]
WM
Yeah, I think I'm like, trying to move to a more sober lifestyle now I'm working in the clubs. Is that, after my last few shifts sober, and it's such a challenge, I think it's kind of like the rose tinted glasses come off, and it's just, it's quite, it's quite a severe reality, if that's not where you're putting your energy. it’s like being in a heated room full of people doing the opposite of what you want.
VF
It's your friends, though, as well. So it's even more difficult. It's people that you want to be then going and spending that time with afterwards.
WM
That's the thing. It's not it's not about the the chasing and the escaping. It's the connection with people, the just spending time with friends, even just chatting shit. It's just so nice to spend time like that.
VF
Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely. But I think when there's too much overlap, it just causes so many issues. And I'd be feeling the same as you, you know, like coming to these spaces sober and, you know, like just being in the environment sober, it it's a lot more difficult when you can't partake in the fun and obviously it does take some of the fun out of it, but it's all about it's just trying to, you know, find balance, like it can't, you know, I think when you spend so long in that one pls e, it can feel like the scales tipped too far one way and you can kind of get lost in the fact that that's even what is happening. Yeah, like I said, it's hard, it's difficult.
WM
But there has been a shift recently. I think what made me really smile recently was there was a small group chat to go walking in Epping Forest. i was like okay , it's just gonna be a small little walk. And then 20 queers show up on time. i was like okay we’re on some shit, almost. I mean, they still went out that evening but we did the walk in the morning. So the heart was there.
VF
You can't, you can't be turning up on time to places and then not doing anything after. We are queer. After all, let's not be too silly.
WM
As a very brave person [howling with laughter] How is it being trans in London babes?
VF
Wow, well, well, well. You know, terf island will be terf island. But actually, I do feel very, very blessed. I think we have a really solid community here, and I think I'm surrounded by a lot of people that see me really authentically and vice versa. And I feel very, very lucky to have that. Well, I think completely lost my train of thought. What was the question? How has it been? How is it being trans? yeah, but you know, it's also fucking hard. And I think I, as, you know, like, ever since openly identifying as trans, like, I still kept my facial hair for a long time and things like that. And so it's only really like a year that I guess I've been presented in a more stereotypically femme way. So I'm still very new to the way men treat me now and things like that. Like I got told for the first time a couple months ago that I should smile more by a stranger on the street,
but I think I'm still quite new to the game of navigating the world, particularly men in this way. And it's you know, like, even though, as well versed and knowledgeable as you can be, nothing prepares you for actually experiencing these sorts of things. And I think the way I've noticed now is like, if, like, men are trying to flirt with me or something, it's completely different. And the way people feel entitled to insert themselves into your space is something I've never felt, I've never experienced it in this capacity before. So I think I feel very blessed. I'm very lucky to have the people around me that I do, but I also I do feel, I feel vulnerable in a completely different way than I felt about before, and it's been, yeah, it's been quite it's Been very eye opening, is what i will say.
TY CHAPMAN [TC]
If I go for a poo is there going to be toilet roll in there?
WM
Yes, if not, shout.
VF
Keep that in.
WM
Has there been any affect on your professional life?
VF
So, yeah, massively, massively. So I think obviously, even in the photos we've taken today, we've been trying to convey this, you know, a more fashionable and artistic lens, what we've been wanting to look at like quite a realistic portrayal of what it is being a trans person in London, like working, trying to make a living for yourself and this goes hand in hand with the creative industries as well. I think the highs are so high and the lows are so - so desperate. It's crazy to experience. Like you can do these incredible things that feel so monumental, and then the next day you work in the cloakroom somewhere. That's what the reality is. Job opportunities for trans people are so much more limited, and they are even more limited to spaces where you can be comfortable and be yourself. And that goes hand in hand with nightlife.
It's not that you're trapped, it's almost like your hand has been played for you in this regard. I appreciate how difficult it is to step outside of this box which we are in. And I know that if I'm experiencing this, it's an experience which must be shared by so many people as well. You hear people sharing their stories and talking about it, and I think it would just be nice to have that seat at the table and be able to explore these opportunities with the same confidence and gusto, if you will. But it's also hard. It's hard knowing you spend so much of your time almost detouring from the lane that you're trying to stay on.
WM
I get you with that one. I think it's just quick easy money and sometimes it's fun. I get to see my friends at work, but then it feels like you came to London to do something and you've really veered off that path.
VF
But I guess I always would look at you in the same boat, like I was, like, literally looking at your Instagram the other day, and, you know, like making clothes for people like Ashnikko, having, like, such professional high, but then still needing to do the same thing that you were doing at like 19/20 just to get by in the industry. So it's such a crazy dichotomy to exist, because one day, you feel like you're doing so well, and then on others, it just feels like you're not going anywhere.
WM
I've noticed recently, I've tried to make doing the cloakroom as fun as possible, even just for any old party, I'll just wear a crazy look and start reading people's fortunes from their cloakroom ticket. Oh, it's fun. You know, just trying to find ways to pass the time.
VF
I think something that I want to highlight is, you know, not only supporting the dolls, but employing the dolls. I think Lucia Blake is doing really good work here on it, in regards to helping trans people with employment and career opportunities. And I think what I would want anyone reading this to take away from reading it is to lift trans people up, and add to their voice and help them, help them get their foot in the door, in places that you might take for granted and might not even realise that they are struggling to access.
TC
What do you think about UNDERWORLD?
VF
I think something that I think is so great about a project like UNDERWORLD is it's so grassroots, and it really is so open arms, and they really want everybody and anybody to be able to take part and contribute towards it. And I think, you know, when we're in a time where we're losing nightlife spaces, we're losing queer spaces, we are losing public and political support, I think something like this is just so necessary and so needed for people. Moving to London and having a space where you've been encouraged to take part and show off your craft and meet other people in this way. You know, I think a lot of when you think about those sorts of things, like your work, your art, my brain instantly goes to networking and these very formal, rigid things, which, especially as, like an autistic person, I've always found so difficult to navigate and deal with. So I think publications like UNDERWORLD, which are really just saying, I want to see what you have, what you've got, and we'll showcase it for you. I think something like that is really special.
WM
I think for me as well, this was the first time I'd shared poetry in a long time, and it really kind of gave me the opportunity to share and it be received. So it really inspired me to, like, push and keep writing and keep doing things, and then even just today, like, we've had such a good day, it’s been such a fun, creative day. I think it's been really wonderful.
VF
So yeah, thank you. Thank you Brandon. Thank you Ty, love you all.
Makeup by Vivifien, Styling and Clothes by Wesley Manners, Transcribed by Ty Chapman, Edited by Brandon Burcher